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Depressive disorder caused by Lyrica? - Rafterman - 10-29-2017
Hello all,
Just wondering if anyone who has taken Lyrica feels that it initiated an episode of depression, or made an existing episode worse. I have widespread peripheral neuropathy, with deep tendon and muscle pain, secondary to motor neuron disease. It's far beyond typical aches and pains. Usually, I would just live with the pain of neuropathy, but this has gotten to be too widespread and too painful. My only two options are to go with a GABA analog (like Lyrica or Neurontin) or blot if all out with opioids. Since Lyrica and Neurontin both mimic and aid inhibitory neurotransmitters, I can see a little possible connection to potential depression when using them...but I am looking to hear first hand stores. Anyone have one? Thanks!
RE: Depressive disorder caused by Lyrica? - invisiblejungle - 10-29-2017
Neurontin and Lyrica have very interesting effects. They're unlike anything I've taken, both stimulating and sedating.
They are supposed to increase GABA and serotonin while reducing norepineprhine and glutamate. They also block substance P, which is why it can be helpful for pain. They definitely cause euphoria and physical stimulation while at the same time being somewhat calming. The ratio of these two opposing effects seems to depend on the dosage taken. People take extremely large doses of them for recreational purposes.
I never took either one daily, but for a few years, I took them once in awhile (couple times a month at most) when I needed an extra boost. However, I always felt drained the day after taking them, so I've since stopped.
If anything, I think Lyrica has a greater chance of helping depression rathern than causing it, due to its serotonergic effects. However, this would mean that depression could set in after stopping it. For some people, withdrawal from Neurontin and Lyrica can be worse than withdrawal from benzos.
RE: Depressive disorder caused by Lyrica? - Rafterman - 11-01-2017
InvisibleJungle....Thank you, so very much. for your input. It is exactly what I was looking for and is very helpful to me. One of the most interesting things you said is that both N and L block substance P. I am familiar with how sub P works and how we depressed types usually have such high levels that it increases our sensitivity to pain stimuli. This would mean that both N and L would be extra effective against pain in a depressed person, versus pain in the general population. I had heard this in theory, but your post confirmed it. Also, I really appreciate you sharing your first hand details. Much respect and thanks.
RE: Depressive disorder caused by Lyrica? - barq2 - 11-01-2017
Thanks, this is really interesting because I'm on gabapentin (Neurontin) for idiopathic neuropathy. I've not had too much trouble with gabapentin, but I certainly see the potential for depression with these gabagenic meds. I am also prescribed tramadol, which for me is a functional antidepressant. In my case it is helpful, but it makes it harder to tell the effects of gabapentin.
We are going to see a lot more Lyrica and Neurontin in years to come. The pharma companies (Pfizer) are now promoting them as a treatment for anxiety, and I think that will be big. In the UK the NHS has started suggesting doctors use gabapentin for anxiety. But as with benzos in the past the addictive side is not something most doctors know about. I'm reducing my gabapentin down but my doctor was clueless. I ended up suggesting a taper schedule (a bit like one for benzos - nice and slow). There is also the abuse potential - although I don't understand the appeal!
RE: Depressive disorder caused by Lyrica? - invisiblejungle - 11-01-2017
(11-01-2017, 05:20 AM)Rafterman Wrote: InvisibleJungle....Thank you, so very much. for your input. It is exactly what I was looking for and is very helpful to me. One of the most interesting things you said is that both N and L block substance P. I am familiar with how sub P works and how we depressed types usually have such high levels that it increases our sensitivity to pain stimuli. This would mean that both N and L would be extra effective against pain in a depressed person, versus pain in the general population. I had heard this in theory, but your post confirmed it. Also, I really appreciate you sharing your first hand details. Much respect and thanks.
Glad to help. If you decide to try it, I hope it works out!
By the way, even though Neurontin and Lyrica are nearly identical molecules, they do feel somewhat different. So if one doesn't work, it might be worth trying the other. Lyrica is definitely stronger. For me, it feels about 4x stronger than Neurontin. (I would take 1200 mg Neurontin but only 300 mg Lyrica for similar effects.)
(11-01-2017, 08:05 PM)barq- Wrote: Thanks, this is really interesting because I'm on gabapentin (Neurontin) for idiopathic neuropathy. I've not had too much trouble with gabapentin, but I certainly see the potential for depression with these gabagenic meds. I am also prescribed tramadol, which for me is a functional antidepressant. In my case it is helpful, but it makes it harder to tell the effects of gabapentin.
We are going to see a lot more Lyrica and Neurontin in years to come. The pharma companies (Pfizer) are now promoting them as a treatment for anxiety, and I think that will be big. In the UK the NHS has started suggesting doctors use gabapentin for anxiety. But as with benzos in the past the addictive side is not something most doctors know about. I'm reducing my gabapentin down but my doctor was clueless. I ended up suggesting a taper schedule (a bit like one for benzos - nice and slow). There is also the abuse potential - although I don't understand the appeal!
I agree that L+N could become the new benzos, prescribed for everything while clueless doctors have no idea about the addiction potential and withdrawal problems. If you browse the drug forums, there are people who take 10 grams of Neurontin for fun!
RE: Depressive disorder caused by Lyrica? - Rafterman - 11-04-2017
(11-01-2017, 08:31 PM)invisiblejungle Wrote:(11-01-2017, 05:20 AM)Rafterman Wrote: InvisibleJungle....Thank you, so very much. for your input. It is exactly what I was looking for and is very helpful to me. One of the most interesting things you said is that both N and L block substance P. I am familiar with how sub P works and how we depressed types usually have such high levels that it increases our sensitivity to pain stimuli. This would mean that both N and L would be extra effective against pain in a depressed person, versus pain in the general population. I had heard this in theory, but your post confirmed it. Also, I really appreciate you sharing your first hand details. Much respect and thanks.
Glad to help. If you decide to try it, I hope it works out!
By the way, even though Neurontin and Lyrica are nearly identical molecules, they do feel somewhat different. So if one doesn't work, it might be worth trying the other. Lyrica is definitely stronger. For me, it feels about 4x stronger than Neurontin. (I would take 1200 mg Neurontin but only 300 mg Lyrica for similar effects.)
(11-01-2017, 08:05 PM)barq- Wrote: Thanks, this is really interesting because I'm on gabapentin (Neurontin) for idiopathic neuropathy. I've not had too much trouble with gabapentin, but I certainly see the potential for depression with these gabagenic meds. I am also prescribed tramadol, which for me is a functional antidepressant. In my case it is helpful, but it makes it harder to tell the effects of gabapentin.
We are going to see a lot more Lyrica and Neurontin in years to come. The pharma companies (Pfizer) are now promoting them as a treatment for anxiety, and I think that will be big. In the UK the NHS has started suggesting doctors use gabapentin for anxiety. But as with benzos in the past the addictive side is not something most doctors know about. I'm reducing my gabapentin down but my doctor was clueless. I ended up suggesting a taper schedule (a bit like one for benzos - nice and slow). There is also the abuse potential - although I don't understand the appeal!
I agree that L+N could become the new benzos, prescribed for everything while clueless doctors have no idea about the addiction potential and withdrawal problems. If you browse the drug forums, there are people who take 10 grams of Neurontin for fun!
Hey Invisible, thanks again for your continuing great advice and thank you for getting specific on the dosing. Much appreciated.
RE: Depressive disorder caused by Lyrica? - Rafterman - 11-12-2017
(11-11-2017, 10:51 PM)slipmat Wrote:(11-04-2017, 07:03 AM)Rafterman Wrote:(11-01-2017, 08:31 PM)invisiblejungle Wrote:(11-01-2017, 05:20 AM)Rafterman Wrote: InvisibleJungle....Thank you, so very much. for your input. It is exactly what I was looking for and is very helpful to me. One of the most interesting things you said is that both N and L block substance P. I am familiar with how sub P works and how we depressed types usually have such high levels that it increases our sensitivity to pain stimuli. This would mean that both N and L would be extra effective against pain in a depressed person, versus pain in the general population. I had heard this in theory, but your post confirmed it. Also, I really appreciate you sharing your first hand details. Much respect and thanks.
Glad to help. If you decide to try it, I hope it works out!
By the way, even though Neurontin and Lyrica are nearly identical molecules, they do feel somewhat different. So if one doesn't work, it might be worth trying the other. Lyrica is definitely stronger. For me, it feels about 4x stronger than Neurontin. (I would take 1200 mg Neurontin but only 300 mg Lyrica for similar effects.)
(11-01-2017, 08:05 PM)barq- Wrote: Thanks, this is really interesting because I'm on gabapentin (Neurontin) for idiopathic neuropathy. I've not had too much trouble with gabapentin, but I certainly see the potential for depression with these gabagenic meds. I am also prescribed tramadol, which for me is a functional antidepressant. In my case it is helpful, but it makes it harder to tell the effects of gabapentin.
We are going to see a lot more Lyrica and Neurontin in years to come. The pharma companies (Pfizer) are now promoting them as a treatment for anxiety, and I think that will be big. In the UK the NHS has started suggesting doctors use gabapentin for anxiety. But as with benzos in the past the addictive side is not something most doctors know about. I'm reducing my gabapentin down but my doctor was clueless. I ended up suggesting a taper schedule (a bit like one for benzos - nice and slow). There is also the abuse potential - although I don't understand the appeal!
I agree that L+N could become the new benzos, prescribed for everything while clueless doctors have no idea about the addiction potential and withdrawal problems. If you browse the drug forums, there are people who take 10 grams of Neurontin for fun!
Hey Invisible, thanks again for your continuing great advice and thank you for getting specific on the dosing. Much appreciated.
Very Interesting thread to read, thanks for sharing.
I am a little bit confused and worried at the same time. I have been on Lyrica since 2012, 600mg a day. I found this very uplifting to start with, now I feel I take it and trust it is doing its job. Worryingly is the time's people mention that Lyrica withdrawal can be worse than benzos.
I have missed maybe 3 days of taking my Lyrica in the time I have been using it, (due to running out prior weekend and negligence). I found that I did not even notice any withdrawal effects or a yearning to get another script. I was told in 2012 when I was placed on this drug that it is non-addictive, yet people are suffering from reduction from what I have heard/read on only recent Information.
I wonder if this is selective withdrawal person dependent, or can the withdrawal take +3.4 days to start?
Any information anyone might have on this would be appreciated, especially if they know of a certain withdrawal that will come from ceasing use.
Rafterman I noticed you mentioned a choice between Lyrica and opioids, in my situation with no problem (so far) as well as a Psychiatrist in 2012 assuring me Lyrica was not addictive I would avoid the opioid option between the choice of the two.
My knowledge is very limited, but I do have a friend who is having a terrible time with oxy c reduction.
I hope you managed to choose the right path.
I am sorry if I have strayed from the Depressive disorder from Lyrica thread, but reading posts it seems there may be more to the Lyrica Gabapentin drug that I have been unaware of.
My prescription for Lyrica since 2012 has been for anxiety disorder.
Thanks, Slipmat. I appreciate what you said and I agree with it. I should have made the point that I have kind a special case. I have a illness that is likely terminal. That is why I am so casual about mentioning me having a choice between Lyrica and opioids. At this point, I have less reason to worry about the issues that one can suffer with opioid use than a person who is expected to love out a normal length life. In a person who is relatively healthy, I would never suggest that that is a equally safe choice. Much safer to go with the Lyrica. Thanks for looking out for me.
RE: Depressive disorder caused by Lyrica? - Rafterman - 11-13-2017
(11-12-2017, 12:56 PM)FirePlaces Wrote: Sorry to hear about your illness RF. Certainly would be a factor in making the decision on the best of meds.Thank you, Fire. I am hanging in there better than I expected myself to be. The doc's that I worked with always hesitated to prescribe Lyrica, supposedly because of the risk of suicide. Go figure. Who would think a drug that works by the mechanism by which it does would cause an increased risk of suicide? I dig what you are saying about the hydro. That it works for you and that you don't crave more is great to hear. I am sorry to hear about the c5 and 6 fusion. Just curious, but have you ever had an fasciculation's in your arms or torso to go along with the pain from that?
I actually made a choice many years ago between Lyrica or Neurontin or hydro. At the time a few hydro would do and I was really afraid of the side effects of Lyrica and Neurotin. This was about 14 years ago and so less was known maybe?
Also my pain was not systematic, but more localized (c5/c6 fusion 25 years old) to back of head, neck, arms, upper back. If I had neuropathy I would have considered those meds.
I am doing okay with my hydro meds. Seeing a PM doc. I am lucky for the most part in that I am not one who starts craving more and more which I think is the real risk in starting opioids.
I wonder if depression is listed officially as one of the side effects of Lyrica. Sorry if this is too off-topic.
Thank you, Slipmat. I wish I could say that I felt I was doing something difficult, but it is a pleasure for me to both gain and share knowledge about anything to do with these subjects. It is what I have done for most of my adult life, so I figured that I might as well keep doing the thing that I like most. I am the one who really gets the pleasure from it. I am adjusting okay to the MND disease diagnosis, thanks. It's a bit jarring at first, but one grows to live with it. I am participating in some experimental drug trials and have slowed it's progress greatly. Very encouraged and hanging in there. Thanks again for your comments!
RE: Depressive disorder caused by Lyrica? - Rafterman - 11-14-2017
(11-13-2017, 07:50 PM)slipmat Wrote: Thanks for the reply Rafterman, hits me to read when someone a keyboard away is in such a difficult situation, not sure how and hope I never have to contemplate getting news that is so life-changing such as yours. I wish you all the best, have hope in the test drugs you mentioned.Thanks, Slipmat. I appreciate you and I appreciate what you said.
FirePlaces, I never had many buddies. I am actually on my third name since the old days of ioplist, for reasons that were not to do with being troublesome ect.
Sounds like your situation is a hard one to bare. Nothing in comparison to your situation, but wearing a helmet for many long periods has played havoc with my neck.
Xrays show no spine issues, just the neck muscles itself can be a real interference with comfortability.
There is always someone who has a situation similar and like yours, so much more severity that reading here, helps me be grateful in the sense that things could be worse for me.
RE: Depressive disorder caused by Lyrica? - Rafterman - 11-21-2017
(11-17-2017, 03:00 PM)FirePlaces Wrote: Slipmat, did you play football? The reference to a helmet is why I ask.I love this tip, Fire. A good friend of mine has a compounding pharmacist, out where he lived in Seattle. She has made him several useful topical compounds over the years. One or two were for pain. I have often wondered if the key to doing this was the additional of a transdermal agent. I know that adding a TA was necessary for some of the other things that she has knocked him up, but not sure if it would be for a muscle relaxer. She said that she is forbidden to tell him how she does what she does. My friend majored in biochemistry and would just love to acquire the recipe for her secret sauce. Whatever she had made for him in the past has worked wonderfully. Really wish I knew if it was the TA she used that made the difference. Excited about telling him about what you said in your post! Thanks. RF
Did you know that flexeril (muscle relaxer) can be made into a cream by a compounding pharmacy? Must be scripted by a doc of course. Not all docs are familiar with compounded pain cremes. I had to bring an article to my PCP/GP about it in order to get mine scripted the first time. Helps in a pinch.
Any time I can find a local (vs systematic) solution that's my go to. TBH, my creme (which also has an anti-inflammatory and lidocaine) is hard to use because my pain is often under my hair. But between a pony tail and staying in, I can make it work.
Anyway, something to think about. Could help you. Let me know if you want me to find a good article on it. Also, in regards to a compounding pharmacy -- mine is pretty far away -- so they just mail the creme to me. My PM doc scripts it now.